this little snippet of stanley hauerwas, prominent theologian, speaking to the youth ministers at the princeton institute for youth ministry. with statements like..
- How many of you worship in a church with an American flag? I am sorry to tell you that your salvation is in doubt.
this is more of lobbing pop shots at the people who have little influence over things of this sort. however, i can appreciate the challenge presented in getting youth folks thinking of some of these things. too bad if they go home and tell parents this stuff they will be gone in a few months.
Oh Stanley… you mean well…
Tony Jones put it best at the Nashville Cohort a few weeks back. Guys like Hauerwas, while they have something incredibly important to say, don’t have a ton of credibility because they are sitting on the pinnacle of the Ivory Tower and have little to no clue what is going on on the ground. It’s easy to paint with broad brushstrokes and call it prophetic, but when you have to look people in the eye who have literally put their life on the line for what that flag stands for, it’s not so easy to callously say “your salvation is in danger”. If Hauerwas went and lived with the people he was criticizing, the core of his message probably wouldn’t change, but he might have to learn how to be a pastor as well as a prophet.
Oh Stanley… you mean well…
Tony Jones put it best at the Nashville Cohort a few weeks back. Guys like Hauerwas, while they have something incredibly important to say, don’t have a ton of credibility because they are sitting on the pinnacle of the Ivory Tower and have little to no clue what is going on on the ground. It’s easy to paint with broad brushstrokes and call it prophetic, but when you have to look people in the eye who have literally put their life on the line for what that flag stands for, it’s not so easy to callously say “your salvation is in danger”. If Hauerwas went and lived with the people he was criticizing, the core of his message probably wouldn’t change, but he might have to learn how to be a pastor as well as a prophet.
i was thinking of the very same conversation when i read this matt.
i was thinking of the very same conversation when i read this matt.
It’s rather convenient to be able to so easily dismiss people who say things that challenge your thinking. Granted, Hauerwas is very much resident in the “ivory tower” of academia. He is also very much involved in the life of the church. He is fully aware of the implications of his words.
In his role as prophet he is challenging the church to be the church. I think he may be going a little far to say that salvation is in doubt in the cases he cites, but it gets the response he wants. His challenges are legitimate. The American church has been thoroughly compromised by American civil religion.
It’s rather convenient to be able to so easily dismiss people who say things that challenge your thinking. Granted, Hauerwas is very much resident in the “ivory tower” of academia. He is also very much involved in the life of the church. He is fully aware of the implications of his words.
In his role as prophet he is challenging the church to be the church. I think he may be going a little far to say that salvation is in doubt in the cases he cites, but it gets the response he wants. His challenges are legitimate. The American church has been thoroughly compromised by American civil religion.
he’s actually said that to youth before (at the Duke Youth Academy which is basically a spin-off of the Youth Theological Initiative at Emory), too…
honestly, i think he should rock on with it… prophets make people feel uncomfortable, and i think he’s doing the job. that’s not to say that i agree/disagree with him. but it causes people to think, and that’s what counts in my book.
🙂
he’s actually said that to youth before (at the Duke Youth Academy which is basically a spin-off of the Youth Theological Initiative at Emory), too…
honestly, i think he should rock on with it… prophets make people feel uncomfortable, and i think he’s doing the job. that’s not to say that i agree/disagree with him. but it causes people to think, and that’s what counts in my book.
🙂
Hauerwas’ voice is important, and if it may not be specially devoted to youth ministry, well, people ought to know by now the sort of thing they’re going to get from Stan the man when they invite him. The ivory tower aspersion is an easy one to throw around (I’ve used it before myself for seminary profs who don’t seem to have actually talked to a person in the pew in 30 years), but it would be a mistake to assume that Hauerwas isn’t involved in a local congregation to a degree that many theology profs would do well to emulate. His thought is both more accessible and more applicable in a parish context than many theologians or ethicists.
The questions he raises are usually the same, i.e. are you thinking about this as a Christian? But it’s a question, as far as I can tell, that needs to be said in different ways in different contexts. I’m glad he’s there to say it, whether it’s to youth ministers or MBA students at Baylor.
Hauerwas’ voice is important, and if it may not be specially devoted to youth ministry, well, people ought to know by now the sort of thing they’re going to get from Stan the man when they invite him. The ivory tower aspersion is an easy one to throw around (I’ve used it before myself for seminary profs who don’t seem to have actually talked to a person in the pew in 30 years), but it would be a mistake to assume that Hauerwas isn’t involved in a local congregation to a degree that many theology profs would do well to emulate. His thought is both more accessible and more applicable in a parish context than many theologians or ethicists.
The questions he raises are usually the same, i.e. are you thinking about this as a Christian? But it’s a question, as far as I can tell, that needs to be said in different ways in different contexts. I’m glad he’s there to say it, whether it’s to youth ministers or MBA students at Baylor.
I would also note that Hauerwas is less–well… less “Stan” when talking to a crowd that’s not churched. His task is to afflict the cultural Christians, which he does a good job of–I can’t say I’ve ever heard him say (or read about him saying) something that people shouldn’t have been able to deal with, or which didn’t have a point in context–more people should be so pastoral in their approach ;-).
I would also note that Hauerwas is less–well… less “Stan” when talking to a crowd that’s not churched. His task is to afflict the cultural Christians, which he does a good job of–I can’t say I’ve ever heard him say (or read about him saying) something that people shouldn’t have been able to deal with, or which didn’t have a point in context–more people should be so pastoral in their approach ;-).
hi all,
to not be confused. i have no problem with what stan is saying. to give some context to our conversation where we mentioned stanley living in the high academia. it wasn’t so much about what he was saying because that conversation was with people who are hauerwas fans. it was more of a, “how do you tend to the people who are in places that preaching a prophetic message of this like would be so harmful that it ceases to pastor to the people.” ie. matt pastors outside clarksville which is a small town atmosphere that houses one of the most active army bases in the united states. or how does one be a armed services chaplain? ‘what do you do with that?’ to come in and just say something like this.. and as a youth minister, with no clergy appointment protection… it is suicide. which, might be the role of the prophet. but let us also know that rabbi’s kept the temple going for years which wasn’t such a bad thing either.
hi all,
to not be confused. i have no problem with what stan is saying. to give some context to our conversation where we mentioned stanley living in the high academia. it wasn’t so much about what he was saying because that conversation was with people who are hauerwas fans. it was more of a, “how do you tend to the people who are in places that preaching a prophetic message of this like would be so harmful that it ceases to pastor to the people.” ie. matt pastors outside clarksville which is a small town atmosphere that houses one of the most active army bases in the united states. or how does one be a armed services chaplain? ‘what do you do with that?’ to come in and just say something like this.. and as a youth minister, with no clergy appointment protection… it is suicide. which, might be the role of the prophet. but let us also know that rabbi’s kept the temple going for years which wasn’t such a bad thing either.
“how do you tend to the people who are in places that preaching a prophetic message of this like would be so harmful that it ceases to pastor to the people. ie. matt pastors outside clarksville which is a small town atmosphere that houses one of the most active army bases in the united states”
Maybe pastoring to people who work in army bases is preaching the sort of message that Hauerwas advocates… I think he speaks about this in some of his essays on peace. He asks questions like “when you go to war, how can you be sure, when dropping bombs from planes, that you’re not going to kill another Christian?”. To be more convinced of the “freedom” that comes from your nationalism (and thus go ahead and bomb) than of the freedom that comes through Christ (such that you cannot take the risk that you’ll put the life of another Christian in danger) is idolatry.
We’re al guilt of idolatry so maybe that’s one we have to let ride, but I wonder whether saying “how does one pastor to an army base?” is a little like asking, “how does one preach a sermon to the guards that work at a concentration camp?”. The answer is “with great difficulty”.
“how does one be a armed services chaplain? ‘what do you do with that?'”
This one is easier. To be an armed service chapain, one does not carry a weapon. Through such Christlike example, one persuades others to put down their weapons. There was once talk of beating those weapons into ploughshares. That would be great army chaplaincy.
“to come in and just say something like this.. and as a youth minister, with no clergy appointment protection…it is suicide”
And here I can only guess at what Stanley might say. He would say something like this, “yes, to be a youth minister who says such Christian things is to actually set an example to the youth of the area that there might be an alternative future for them outside the army base of the town. And if through preaching such a message, one commits ‘career’ suicide, because one was so faithful in witnessing the peace of Christ, you just might have made a hell of a lot more disciples of the youth than you would by taking them to disney land”.
“how do you tend to the people who are in places that preaching a prophetic message of this like would be so harmful that it ceases to pastor to the people. ie. matt pastors outside clarksville which is a small town atmosphere that houses one of the most active army bases in the united states”
Maybe pastoring to people who work in army bases is preaching the sort of message that Hauerwas advocates… I think he speaks about this in some of his essays on peace. He asks questions like “when you go to war, how can you be sure, when dropping bombs from planes, that you’re not going to kill another Christian?”. To be more convinced of the “freedom” that comes from your nationalism (and thus go ahead and bomb) than of the freedom that comes through Christ (such that you cannot take the risk that you’ll put the life of another Christian in danger) is idolatry.
We’re al guilt of idolatry so maybe that’s one we have to let ride, but I wonder whether saying “how does one pastor to an army base?” is a little like asking, “how does one preach a sermon to the guards that work at a concentration camp?”. The answer is “with great difficulty”.
“how does one be a armed services chaplain? ‘what do you do with that?'”
This one is easier. To be an armed service chapain, one does not carry a weapon. Through such Christlike example, one persuades others to put down their weapons. There was once talk of beating those weapons into ploughshares. That would be great army chaplaincy.
“to come in and just say something like this.. and as a youth minister, with no clergy appointment protection…it is suicide”
And here I can only guess at what Stanley might say. He would say something like this, “yes, to be a youth minister who says such Christian things is to actually set an example to the youth of the area that there might be an alternative future for them outside the army base of the town. And if through preaching such a message, one commits ‘career’ suicide, because one was so faithful in witnessing the peace of Christ, you just might have made a hell of a lot more disciples of the youth than you would by taking them to disney land”.